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 Post subject: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:32 am 
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Since I play JK2 I hear sentences like:
"Go dark.", "Light is ****.", "Light players only run.", "Light players have no skill.".
And it's really sad that the majority of players think that dark requires more skill and that light is easy to play.

There's a reason why the very best players are and always will be dark players. Light is inferior to dark in terms of game mechanics. And I am not only speaking out of my own perspective, but there never were a point in the history of JK2 where the best player was a light player. With other words, the best light player will never beat the best dark player in a lame 1on1 situation.

In this thread I want to point out why I believe the above and why I think that light is actually harder to play than dark (I'm speaking of high level gaming).

I'm writing from a light players perspective:

When you play light against a good darker you will never have forcepoints because the dark player will never push/pull against you. So the first drawback you have to deal with is that you're not allowed to use your forcepoints carelessly. While the dark player can happily use most of his forcepowers(jump, throw, etc) you're the one whose force slowly gets drained either by absorb, or worse if the darker gets his drain on you.
A lighter is therefore very very limited in using force at all (except for absorb, which is essential).

For example: A dark player is in most situations able to saber throw (which is btw very strong against light).
But as a light player you'll use throw very rarely to never because it's so expensive for you. One throw in absorb mode is almost the point where you have to move on to regenerate.
That means that it's an essential technique to gather distance to the darker if your force power is low or when your absorb wears off.
This is why lighters have to be very agile and fast on the map and that's why people refer to them as "runners".
But it is certain that lighters will die very fast if they don't move behind walls to regenerate their force points.

Next thing is that protect is very weak in comparison to rage. While a dark player easily can survive multiple hits, a light player
is almost certainly dead if he falls down in a corner or against a wall. Oh and did I mention the speed? Enough said here. Good dark players are able to stay very long in rage mode and still have forcepoints to pull, push or drain. Again another good reason to either gather distance when a darker rages hard, or to try to kick him down without using pp (flawtip: kicks also drain force points, so your force goes even lower).

If a light player brings down a dark player, the darker is almost ever able to rage. That means a lighter can't kill a darker in the first place (not even in corners). But in contrast, when a lighter goes down he loses most force, because the darker either hits, so the light player must use protect, or he gets drained in protect mode and is therefore very easy to kill. While the dark player almost always, except for rage, regenerates force and is able to attack, the light player is always low on force. To a light player force is even more important than hit points.

Let's move on to another hard to manage situation. Open areas. Theres no way a lighter can survive very long when the fight happens in an open area. You must take cover as a light player. There's no other way. Again, that's not "running", it's survival.

But let's be fair. There is one situation where the light player have a slight advantage. Dooming areas. Maybe it's easy to doom bad dark players, but it gets harder when they're not so bad ;). So all in all a light player can use dooming areas to gather more distance and that's it. (No-dooming unwritten rule not to be mentioned here.)

So some of you may think: "Well, but light players have THE force of all forces: ~A-B-S-O-R-B~, which is IMBA!!! They can't even get pushed or pulled when it's activated!!!"
So let me reply to that:
Absorb is absolutely no advantage when the dark player never uses push or pull (which good players won't ever do).
Absorb is a big drawback. You as lighter must use absorb or you get drained and therefore die.
But once again it doesn't give you any advantages then, it just drains your force and nothing else.

So the theory I've come up with reads:
"A dark player have more force points at any time in a fight and is therefore able to execute more moves and more moves mean more chances to hit or kill."

That's why I say that playing as lighter vs a darker is harder than vice versa.

So dark players, when you fight a lighter next time and lose, don't refer to the "light thing" and instead admit that it's a better player than you are.

Maybe some good lighters can say a word in this thread. I'm also hoping on some dark perspectives.

And please guys, at no means this thread is designed to be a cry thread, it's just my point of view as an experienced light player who is bugged about bad dark players bitching. Keep it constructive ;).



Yours sincerely,

BroZuF McRipnut

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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:34 am 
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Hmmmm


Last edited by croco #_ on Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:13 am 
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Well I'm not a super good lighter, but I can comprehend jozuf's delineated situations totally :p
Though I wouldn't directly say light is harder to play than dark, especially for beginners or people who played/play a lot of nf. But Jozuf's talking about higher levels anyway :p


PS.: Croco, your post would be more believable if you'd post some reasons instead of repeating yourself... no offence!


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:37 am 
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croco #_ wrote:
unless you know how to play

We're only talking about 1on1 situations. And we're only talking about people who know how to play, as stated above.

croco #_ wrote:
there are many things you dont know about because you've never met a advanced player .

I think I got a lot more experience in JK2 than you do (not saying that I'm better, read the thread again). And that only because I play so much longer than you do. You must admit you're relatively new to JK2. I also think I played vs better players than you ever did just because they don't play anymore. I'm sorry for that you won't get the chance anymore.

croco #_ wrote:
but dark will always be better than light in 1n1

So you are supporting my thesis?

Please bring up some arguments why you think this or that, like Nerevar said. At this point you are only bringing up claims. I'm looking forward to a constructive discussion about the most fundamental part of JK2, dark vs light.

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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:12 pm 
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bughero wrote:
croco #_ wrote:
unless you know how to play

We're only talking about 1on1 situations. And we're only talking about people who know how to play, as stated above.

croco #_ wrote:
there are many things you dont know about because you've never met a advanced player .

I think I got a lot more experience in JK2 than you do (not saying that I'm better, read the thread again). And that only because I play so much longer than you do. You must admit you're relatively new to JK2. I also think I played vs better players than you ever did just because they don't play anymore. I'm sorry for that you won't get the chance anymore.

croco #_ wrote:
but dark will always be better than light in 1n1

So you are supporting my thesis?

Please bring up some arguments why you think this or that, like Nerevar said. At this point you are only bringing up claims. I'm looking forward to a constructive discussion about the most fundamental part of JK2, dark vs light.


Lol, you think you got more experience than me? that just made me really lol . You maybe played 1 year longer than me probably, thats proves nothing and LOL im not relatively new to jk2, i have been playing ffa and for 5-6 years . I would bet on my life that i got more experience than you do , i can prove it anytime if thats what you want . I am not bringing up claims ... if you say so then i'll make some arguments . The old players you probably played were good at that time because lame wasnt as advanced as nowadays, no offense . Don't think im a new player without knowledge , you really insult me , i got 500x more knowledge than you and i can prove it anytime . Man you just make me lol very hard . Yea dark is better than light in 1n1 but that doesnt mean light is harder to play ...
Ok, im going to bring some arguments if thats what you want


Last edited by croco #_ on Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:09 pm 
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1) The dark player will pull/push you . There are some situations : a) pull kicking you to a wall (hoping you fall ) \/ b) pull throw , not very usefull because the lighter gains force \/ c) probably push when you want to take shields and hes near you ( when he doesnt jump, push works when he walks so you have time to get them otherwise he may pull or want to attack you so with that push you gain time and run out of shield area ,1 or 2 ) But usually , you don't get pushed or pulled for no reason and no effect after that , only by noobs . Lol, you will have forcepoints ofc , but you must be carefully at how you use them , usually when your force goes lower than 20 you should retreat . Throw works , if you can manage to do a pull throw on a 10 hp darker , it may work (you never throw when your attacking with absorb on and the darker has more than 30 hp unless your stupid :p , you throw pull when he is in air while having low hp, if you can't do anything better ) Yea, the darker can easily use his powers , but still he must not abuse them , like 3-4 throws in a row , because if you manage to kick him to a wall or something , after that he has to rage and he will have no force at all , so its easier for you . Or if he starts to jump up, you can try your luck by pull kicking him . The dark's drainer should never be on you , because as i said if it is lower than 20 you should retreat, if he is trying to follow you he may pull ( that helps you to escape easier, plus hunting a light with some force left is risky )
2) Yea, light is limited at using force , if you play light you need nf more , you must be smart and use tricks like faking a bs, (while your doing the fake bs slash, you can roll with pull , that may work its just a trick there are many others ) . Yea saber throw is good for a darker but you usually use saber throw when the lighter makes a slash, dfa bs or anything that can be hit by throw , keep in mind that the darker is vulnerable to pull kick while he is throwing , so you both got advantages . Only angry wannabes say lighter are runners or stuff like that , every1 runs in lame, it's essential and it's part of lame , who doesn't like that can **** off and play FF .
3) Protect isnt as good as rage, rage isnt as good as protect , both forces has disadvantages .
a) If you get kicked to a wall (while you were attacking&absorbing ) you can survive a w hit or bs , depends who makes them tho and where you get kicked , but you got medium chances to survive , after that you can just absorb and go to next shields while the darker may follow you , but you got the absorb on so only thing he can do is follow you or pull , which helps if he pulls , if you survive a bs or w hit and you got no force after that only thing you can do is to pray to god for some luck or try to escape away from him ... Remember that you dont get slowed down after you finish protecting , like rage . You must not stay near to corners ...
b) Rage is great, but it's same time not very great . You can survive w hits or bs , but remember that the darker has only 50 or less force left if he turn it on , you can hide to a wall to regenerate force, after that you can hunt him , he is slowed down and vulnerable to kicks , saber hits, or you can risk by trying to kick while he is raging or anything else , you can't kill him from first fall , being smart and tricky is essential for lighters , same for dark but a bit more for lighters . So as you see, both , protect and rage got advantages and disadvantages. Yeah, dooms can be good but only noobs gets tricked to fall in dooms .
4) You can push or pull when you got absorb on lul , just watch out the force . Absorb is an advantage , of course it is , while you absorb you can do alot of things like hitting him with red slash , nf especially or tricking him to fall after pull , if he drains/throws you can pull kick him and so on . It gives you chances to kill the darker, it is not as useless as you think, thats why to be a good lighter you need nf skills and to be smart and tricky .
Your words : "A dark player have more force points at any time in a fight and is therefore able to execute more moves and more moves mean more chances to hit or kill." Ye but not always , if he turned on rage you can make him waste his force .
That's it . Anyway IF light would be harder to play than dark , who would care if light still loses and it is harder to play? thats the game :p , obey the gamez0r .
Have fun,
croco .')


Last edited by croco #_ on Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:10 pm 
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LOL i just realised how much i wrote :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:33 pm 
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Nice post there... but I don't think you got my point yet.

Let's presume an all knowing light player plays versus an all knowing dark player.
At this stage of gaming, the dark player will always win. Just as you wrote before, i presume it's also your opinion:
croco #_ wrote:
Yea dark is better than light in 1n1 but that doesnt mean light is harder to play ...

croco #_ wrote:
but dark will always be better than light in 1n1


With other words: light have disadvantages in 1on1. And the result is, that a dark player is in an overall advantageous position.

And for the "but that doesnt mean light is harder to play ..." part, I formulate my second thesis:
A light player have to bring up more skill in a light versus dark 1on1 situation compared to the dark player in the same situation. Therefore light is harder to play.

So i come to the conclusion as of now, that my main statement is still intact.

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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:17 pm 
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bughero wrote:
Nice post there... but I don't think you got my point yet.

Let's presume an all knowing light player plays versus an all knowing dark player.
At this stage of gaming, the dark player will always win. Just as you wrote before, i presume it's also your opinion:
croco #_ wrote:
Yea dark is better than light in 1n1 but that doesnt mean light is harder to play ...

croco #_ wrote:
but dark will always be better than light in 1n1


With other words: light have disadvantages in 1on1. And the result is, that a dark player is in an overall advantageous position.

And for the "but that doesnt mean light is harder to play ..." part, I formulate my second thesis:
A light player have to bring up more skill in a light versus dark 1on1 situation compared to the dark player in the same situation. Therefore light is harder to play.

So i come to the conclusion as of now, that my main statement is still intact.

Yea i got your point but i wouldn't say you need more skill as a lighter , this can be your own opinion ... dark players has to be also skilled . I got what your trying to say , that light must put more effort to kill the darker than the darker itself but i just wouldn't say more skilled , if the lighter would be more skilled then the darker should lose .


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:33 pm 
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Just gonna throw out there that saber throw does not make you vulnerable to pull. You saber throw with your right hand and still have your left for blocking.


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:02 pm 
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Herpaderp wrote:
Just gonna throw out there that saber throw does not make you vulnerable to pull. You saber throw with your right hand and still have your left for blocking.

Your joking or what ... ?


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 7:47 pm 
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jozuf meld dich mal in icq bei mir -.-


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:33 pm 
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Wtf spik inglish .


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Light can be equally abusive vs sick opponents.
For example if you're good at escaping you could play the 1 pull+kick strategy, meaning you run in and go for a single, safe pull+kick.
If the guy falls you attack with something safe so you never get kicked, if he doesnt fall you run, rinse and repeat until he falls.
Once he falls you dont have to do anything at all except follow, tripple W hits are common today so you could just pool your force as he runs and get him down once after rage, should be GG.
If you still dont manage to get him down after rage you should just retreat like a ***** and start all over.

BUT, this is a mental thing, for some reason light is expected to hunt the dark player all the time and and this is easilly abusive.
The only thing you can do is think outside the box and play how you think is best.


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:51 am 
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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:29 pm 
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'' The idea is to use yellow style against your opponent , if he use saber throw you will hit him, if he move you pull him down, switch to red style and double hit. Then follow him and wait he remove rage to finish him with the move you want. ''

I would like to see you doing what you are actually talking.


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:11 pm 
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croco #_ wrote:
Herpaderp wrote:
Just gonna throw out there that saber throw does not make you vulnerable to pull. You saber throw with your right hand and still have your left for blocking.

Your joking or what ... ?


Try it. If you throw the saber but still have force you will block pull.


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:44 pm 
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I misunderstood , i thought he ment that while he is throwing he can block saber attacks with the left hand .


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:14 pm 
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I think croco found the perfect kick method combined with uppercut style against light.. so .. light is purely harder by now I guess. To the thing Misery said with 1pull+kick or even yoyo strategy I'd add a good yellow style which makes it almost impossible to kick without receiving heavy damage as an attacker.

And all of these theories of disadvantage in 1n1 turns into vice versa when it's a 2n2 I kinda think lol.

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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:20 pm 
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Indeed :]


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:21 am 
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I was gonna write a post with my thoughts on the matter but I can't be bothered


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:22 am 
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bughero wrote:
There's a reason why the very best players are and always will be dark players.


thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:39 am 
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After all , you chose to be a lighter and if you got to put more effort to kill a darker than the darker itself , who cares? you wanted to be a lighter , now don't complain about it ok .
p.s: thats the game .
p.s.s: shh padawan maiden


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:39 am 
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croco #_ wrote:
After all , you chose to be a lighter and if you got to put more effort to kill a darker than the darker itself , who cares? you wanted to be a lighter , now don't complain about it ok .
p.s: thats the game .
p.s.s: shh padawan maiden


dude, you are flaming again... BroZuf wanted a serious discussion about the main part of jk2 and mostly he got it ^-^


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:25 pm 
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maiden wrote:
bughero wrote:
There's a reason why the very best players are and always will be dark players.


thanks!

I didn't meant that dark players have greater skill and are therefore better but because dark is more easy to play. Thanks!
I also like that everybody shares my opinion. I just wanted to point out that light is harder and that's why >>I<< play it. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:46 pm 
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bughero wrote:
maiden wrote:
bughero wrote:
There's a reason why the very best players are and always will be dark players.


thanks!

I didn't meant that dark players have greater skill and are therefore better but because dark is more easy to play. Thanks!
I also like that everybody shares my opinion. I just wanted to point out that light is harder and that's why >>I<< play it. :mrgreen:

thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:28 pm 
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>I just wanted to point out that light is harder and that's why >>I<< play it.

I think it was said already but again:
Light at pro level vs pro Darkers is really hard, not sure whether more challenging^^ I've seen that Lighters owned pro Darkers - too many times - mostly ofc when the Darkers were offensive and impatient players and the Lighter was shilding and cancelling fail attack attempts.
On the other hand, I'd say Light is easier to play for Newcomers because they don't know how to handle drain as darkers and dont know how to avoid falling all the time etc. (I think that's the most reason why people stayed Light and got used to it ..ops.. besides the saying "it's harder to play with that's why I play it" opsi ops)

tl;dr
light gets mostly owned on champions level but playing vs casual pros; it works good.

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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:02 am 
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Kaiser wrote:
>I just wanted to point out that light is harder and that's why >>I<< play it.

tl;dr
light gets mostly owned on champions level but playing vs casual pros; it works good.


I think this is true, but I don't think light will always lose to dark vs the best players. The best 2 are dark, sure, but the best players would have to be light or dark... if one was light, would your opinion change? If it were like, the top 25 were best, it would change things, sure, but top 2 ? I think a light can hold that spot with enough craftiness in his gameplay


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:45 am 
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Kaiser wrote:
champion


thanks


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 Post subject: Re: BroZuFs theory on why light is harder to play than dark
PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:51 pm 
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[quote="bughero"]Since I play JK2 I hear sentences like:
"Go dark.", "Light is ****.", "Light players only run.", "Light players have no skill.".
And it's really sad that the majority of players think that dark requires more skill and that light is easy to play.

There's a reason why the very best players are and always will be dark players. Light is inferior to dark in terms of game mechanics. And I am not only speaking out of my own perspective, but there never were a point in the history of JK2 where the best player was a light player. With other words, the best light player will never beat the best dark player in a lame 1on1 situation.

In this thread I want to point out why I believe the above and why I think that light is actually harder to play than dark (I'm speaking of high level gaming).

I'm writing from a light players perspective:

When you play light against a good darker you will never have forcepoints because the dark player will never push/pull against you. So the first drawback you have to deal with is that you're not allowed to use your forcepoints carelessly. While the dark player can happily use most of his forcepowers(jump, throw, etc) you're the one whose force slowly gets drained either by absorb, or worse if the darker gets his drain on you.
A lighter is therefore very very limited in using force at all (except for absorb, which is essential).

For example: A dark player is in most situations able to saber throw (which is btw very strong against light).
But as a light player you'll use throw very rarely to never because it's so expensive for you. One throw in absorb mode is almost the point where you have to move on to regenerate.
That means that it's an essential technique to gather distance to the darker if your force power is low or when your absorb wears off.
This is why lighters have to be very agile and fast on the map and that's why people refer to them as "runners".
But it is certain that lighters will die very fast if they don't move behind walls to regenerate their force points.

Next thing is that protect is very weak in comparison to rage. While a dark player easily can survive multiple hits, a light player
is almost certainly dead if he falls down in a corner or against a wall. Oh and did I mention the speed? Enough said here. Good dark players are able to stay very long in rage mode and still have forcepoints to pull, push or drain. Again another good reason to either gather distance when a darker rages hard, or to try to kick him down without using pp (flawtip: kicks also drain force points, so your force goes even lower).

If a light player brings down a dark player, the darker is almost ever able to rage. That means a lighter can't kill a darker in the first place (not even in corners). But in contrast, when a lighter goes down he loses most force, because the darker either hits, so the light player must use protect, or he gets drained in protect mode and is therefore very easy to kill. While the dark player almost always, except for rage, regenerates force and is able to attack, the light player is always low on force. To a light player force is even more important than hit points.

Let's move on to another hard to manage situation. Open areas. Theres no way a lighter can survive very long when the fight happens in an open area. You must take cover as a light player. There's no other way. Again, that's not "running", it's survival.

But let's be fair. There is one situation where the light player have a slight advantage. Dooming areas. Maybe it's easy to doom bad dark players, but it gets harder when they're not so bad ;). So all in all a light player can use dooming areas to gather more distance and that's it. (No-dooming unwritten rule not to be mentioned here.)

So some of you may think: "Well, but light players have THE force of all forces: ~A-B-S-O-R-B~, which is IMBA!!! They can't even get pushed or pulled when it's activated!!!"
So let me reply to that:
Absorb is absolutely no advantage when the dark player never uses push or pull (which good players won't ever do).
Absorb is a big drawback. You as lighter must use absorb or you get drained and therefore die.
But once again it doesn't give you any advantages then, it just drains your force and nothing else.

So the theory I've come up with reads:
"A dark player have more force points at any time in a fight and is therefore able to execute more moves and more moves mean more chances to hit or kill."

That's why I say that playing as lighter vs a darker is harder than vice versa.

So dark players, when you fight a lighter next time and lose, don't refer to the "light thing" and instead admit that it's a better player than you are.

Maybe some good lighters can say a word in this thread. I'm also hoping on some dark perspectives.

And please guys, at no means this thread is designed to be a cry thread, it's just my point of view as an experienced light player who is bugged about bad dark players bitching. Keep it constructive ;).



Yours sincerely,

BroZuF McRipnut


Good post, I agree with what you said! Well written.

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